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Author: James Nieman

The A-List Podcast with Jamie Barrett

On this week’s edition of The A-List Podcast, Jamie Barrett calls in to the studio for an inspiring interview with host and DiMassimo Goldstein CCO, Tom Christmann.

Barrett is the Founder and Executive Creative Director at barrettSF, an agency he launched in 2012. Before opening his own shop, Barrett made a name for himself as an esteemed creative, delivering world famous campaigns for many of the most renowned agencies in the industry, such as Goodby Silverstein & Partners, Fallon, Wieden+Kennedy and Chiat\Day.

In this episode, learn all about Barrett’s life before advertising, when he spent one summer teaching tennis and windsurfing in the French Riviera and the next at a boot camp in Virginia. Hear what he learned working under some of the most iconic names in advertising, why he views his job as a glorified hobby, the importance of great account people, and much more. Full episode and show notes below!

Show Notes:

  • [0:00 – 1:27] Intro
  • [1:28 – 12:22] Barrett reflects on his childhood, talks about teaching tennis and windsurfing in the French Riviera, and talks about his experience spending one summer at a boot camp in Virginia
  • [12:23 – 18:15] His time at Princeton University, aspirations of becoming a sportswriter, and the moment he realized he wanted to go into advertising
  • [18:16 – 29:42] Trying to break into the industry, being denied 15 straight times, and the awesome story of the dinner with Pat Fallon and Tom McElligott that landed him a gig at Fallon
  • [29:43 – 36:00] Barrett reflects on many of the amazing mentors he worked under before ultimately leaving Fallon to take a job at Chiat/Day in New York
  • [36:01 – 39:40] His short yet meaningful time at Fallon, and the transition between being a writer and becoming an Associate Creative Director
  • [39:41 – 50:00] Barrett talks about his different experiences at each of the agencies he worked at, and how they all helped shape the creative he is today
  • [50:01 – 53:56] The importance of great account people, the emotional intelligence required of good creatives
  • [53:57 – 1:01:26] Launching his own agency, why he doesn’t shy away from the word “advertising,” and the meaning behind the agency’s tortoise mascot
  • [1:01:27 – 1:04:14] What he looks for in young creatives
  • [1:04:15 – 1:05:24] Outro

“The A-List” is a podcast produced by DiMassimo Goldstein, an inspiring action agency, recorded at the Gramercy Post, and sponsored by the Adhouse Advertising School, New York’s newest, smallest, and hippest ad school. You can subscribe and rate the show on iTunes or listen along on SoundCloud. For updates on upcoming episodes and guests, be sure to like the A-List Podcast on Facebook and follow host Tom Christmann on Twitter

The A-List Podcast with Eric Weisberg

On this week’s episode of the A-List Podcast, host and DiMassimo Goldstein CCO Tom Christmann is joined by Eric Weisberg, Global Chief Creative Officer at Doner, where he oversees creative across the agency’s 600-person micro-network in Los Angeles, Detroit, New York City, and London. Beyond his achievements as an award-winning creative, Weisberg is renowned for his ability to blend ideas, technology and media.

In this inspiring interview, Weisberg talks about the innovative ways he would reach out to agencies as a young creative looking for a job, what inspired him this year at Cannes, why collaboration is essential to bringing great ideas to life, and much more! Full episode and show notes below!

Show Notes:

  • [0:00 – 1:30] Intro
  • [1:31 – 5:29] Weisberg talks about his childhood in Ohio, the tagline used for his father’s meat company, and deciding to leave the family business to find a new adventure in life.
  • [5:30 – 10:30] Weisberg reflects on his time at Syracuse University and the teachers that ultimately inspired his career
  • [10:31 – 17:00] Living on a couch in Manhattan to work as an intern, and the creative ways he reached out to agencies for a job
  • [17:10 – 20:58] Eric talks about his first gig at Griswold in Ohio, and the funny story behind him leaving to go to Leo Burnett in Chicago.
  • [20:59 – 31:47] Creative partnership, his first shoot, and the moment he realized he could be have a successful career in advertising
  • [31:48 – 35:30] Weisberg talks about the time an executive fell asleep during one of his presentations, and why he decided to go back to New York to work for Walter Thompson
  • [35:31 – 45:00] “The Story Starting Process”, what he learned under Ty Montague, and helping J&J become the first company to advertise on an iPhone app
  • [45:01 – 48:40] His current role at Doner, and the importance of collaboration
  • [48:41 –54:05] How Cannes re-inspired him this year, and the power of creativity and where it’s going
  • [54:06 – 56:06] Why everyone should eventually teach
  • [56:07 – 58:01] Outro

“The A-List” is a podcast produced by DiMassimo Goldstein, recorded at the Gramercy Post, and sponsored by the Adhouse Advertising School, New York’s newest, smallest, and hippest ad school. You can subscribe and rate the show on iTunes or listen along on SoundCloud. For updates on upcoming episodes and guests, be sure to like the A-List Podcast on Facebook and follow host Tom Christmann on Twitter

The A-List Podcast with Chris Beresford-Hill

For our fourth episode of Season 2 of The A-List Podcast, host and DiMassimo Goldstein CCO Tom Christmann is joined by Chris Beresford-Hill, Chief Creative Officer at TBWA\Chiat\Day New York!

In this special interview, Chris explains his creative process and how it’s changed over the years, reflects on some of the great people he’s worked with and what he’s learned from them, talks about placing brands in modern culture, and much much more. Full episode and show notes below!

Show Notes:

  • [0:00 – 1:43] Intro
  • [1:44 – 8:14] Chris takes us back to his childhood in White Plains, New York, and talks about his Grandma was his best friend growing up.
  • [8:15 –12:14] How he got fired from an unpaid marketing internship, a job as a tennis instructor, and a job as a file clerk before eventually getting into advertising.
  • [12:15 – 16:50] Interning at Mad Dogs & Englishmen, and the competition he won to get to the role.
  • [16:51 – 20:55] Chris reflects on the unique culture at Goodby Silverstein & Partners, and talks about the amazing he experience he had working under Jamie Barrett.
  • [20:56 – 24:59] Turning down a master’s degree at the London School of Economics to continue his career in advertising
  • [25:00 – 26:55] Going to first shoot in Hollywood as a 21-year old, and what life was like on the road.
  • [26:56 – 31:30] Chris shares a funny story behind why he took the job at Goodby
  • [31:31 – 42:08] Partnership, why Dan Lucey is his “creative soulmate”, and how working out has helpedwith  creativity
  • [42: 09 – 44:00] The value of putting your phone away and work offline
  • [44:01 – 57:05] His present role at TBWA\Chiat\Day, the agency’s storied history, and placing brands in modern culture
  • [57:06 – 59:47] What he looks for in a portfolio
  • [59:48 – 1:00:42] Outro

“The A-List” is a podcast produced by DiMassimo Goldstein, recorded at the Gramercy Post, and sponsored by the Adhouse Advertising School, New York’s newest, smallest, and hippest ad school. You can subscribe and rate the show on iTunes or listen along on SoundCloud. For updates on upcoming episodes and guests, be sure to like the A-List Podcast on Facebook and follow host Tom Christmann on Twitter

The A-List Podcast with Tiffany Rolfe

This week on The A-List Podcast, host and DiMassimo Goldstein CCO Tom Christmann is joined by Tiffany Rolfe, Partner and Chief Content Officer at Co:collective.

Prior to joining Co:collective six years ago, Rolfe spent 10 years at Crispin Porter + Bogusky, where she ultimately became the co-executive creative director of their Los Angeles office.

In this interview, Rolfe talks about the importance of taking risks, what it was like working as a web designer in the early stages of the internet, why brands need to align their stories with their actions, and much much more. Full episode below and show notes below!

Show Notes:

  • [0:00 – 1:26] Into
  • [1:27 – 4:14] Rolfe talks about her childhood growing up in Oklahoma before ultimately packing her bags and moving to Los Angeles
  • [4:15 – 8:44] What it was like working as a programmer and web designer for startups in the early stages of the internet
  • [8:45 – 11:55] Going back to school at the ArtCenter College of Design in California and falling in love with advertising
  • [11:56 – 13:41] Rolfe takes us through the first few months after she graduated, and why she wanted to work at Crispin.
  • [13:42 – 19:55] The 10-hour interview with Alex Bogusky that led to 10 years at Crispin, and the unique portfolio that helped land her the job.
  • [19:56 – 29:36] Rolfe talks about the philosophy and culture at Crispin, and how much of what she learned there helped shape the creative she is today
  • [29:37 – 33:22] What you can learn from making mistakes
  • [33:23 – 37:01] Rolfe recounts the moment she realized she was a leader
  • [37:02 –43:52] Moving her life to New York and becoming a Chief Content Officer and Partner at Co:collective, and what makes co:collective different than other agencies
  • [43:53 – 49:35] “Storydoing” and how doing your story instead of telling your story manifests across an entire organization
  • [49:36 – 51: 10] Creating cultural impact with creative ideas
  • [51:11 – 54:30] Rolfe offers advice to young creatives trying to break into the industry
  • [54:31 – 55:57] Outro

“The A-List” is a podcast produced by DiMassimo Goldstein, recorded at the Gramercy Post, and sponsored by the Adhouse Advertising School, New York’s newest, smallest, and hippest ad school. You can subscribe and rate the show on iTunes or listen along on SoundCloud. For updates on upcoming episodes and guests, be sure to like the A-List Podcast on Facebook and follow host Tom Christmann on Twitter

The A-List Podcast with Dan Lucey

This week on the A-List Podcast, host and DiMassimo Goldstein CCO Tom Christmann is joined by Dan Lucey, Executive Creative Director at BBDO. With multiple awards to his name from Cannes to The One Show, among many others, Dan is one of the most respected and accomplished creatives in the industry.

In this episode, Dan takes us full circle, starting from his time as a student at Adhouse Advertising School all the up way to becoming a teacher for the program. He shares valuable lessons from his experiences of both triumph and defeat, tells the story behind his hilarious Talking Stain ad for Tide, and explains why having “unrealistic optimism” is an asset in the advertising industry.

Full episode and show notes below!

  • [0:00 – 1:27] Intro
  • [1:28 – 6:05] Dan talks about how being a student at AdHouse helped him break into the industry, and how he returns the favor today by being a teacher for the program
  • [6:06: 11:30] Getting an internship at Mad Dogs & Englishmen and what that experience was like
  • [11:31 – 13:55] How working by yourself can help you find your point of view, and why having a balance of both honesty and respect is essential in a creative partnership
  • [13:56 – 18:30] Dan reflects on the culture at Mad Dogs & Englishmen and what he learned from his time there
  • [18:31 – 21:49] Getting a full-time gig and moving into an apartment on the Upper East Side, and getting to work on Haribo Gummy Bears
  • [21:50 – 25:10] Dan talks about being laid off, what he learned from the experience, and why being unrealistically optimistic is an important asset in the advertising industry
  • [25:11 – 27:50] Freelancing for magazines and getting back into design
  • [27:51 – 29: 29] Getting back into advertising working on the Hard Rock Hotel for DiMassimo Goldstein before ultimately going to Saatchi & Saatchi
  • [29:30 – 36:18] Dan talks about what it’s like to work at a big agency and shares his mental approach to work
  • [36:18 – 42:55] The story behind his hilarious Talking Stain ad for Tide
  • [42:56 – 47:00] Moving to San Francisco to take a job at Goodby Silverstein & Partners, and what he learned from working in Jamie Barrett’s pressure-free environment
  • [47:01 –49:32] Dan shares a recent story that highlights the importance of staying calm in the midst of chaos
  • [49:33 – 55:14] Why he waited 18 months to take the job at Goodby, and the passion and intensity that Rich Silverstein has to make things great
  • [55:15 – 58:35] Why he eventually moved back to New York to work with Chris Beresford-Hll at BBDO, and why he loves the culture there
  • [58:36 – 1:00:27] Dan talks about his leadership and management style, the importance of clear direction, and not forgetting what it’s like being a young creative
  • [1:00:28 – 1:02:58] Dan shares what he looks for in portfolios
  • [1:02:59 – 1:03:41] Outro

 “The A-List” is a podcast produced by DiMassimo Goldstein, recorded at the Gramercy Post, and sponsored by the Adhouse Advertising School, New York’s newest, smallest, and hippest ad school. You can subscribe and rate the show on iTunes or listen along on SoundCloud. For updates on upcoming episodes and guests, be sure to like the A-List Podcast on Facebook and follow host Tom Christmann on Twitter

The A-List Podcast with John Patroulis

“There’s always going to be a job for people that really care”

The A-List Podcast is back for Season 2!

In this season’s premiere episode, host and DiMassimo Goldstein CCO Tom Christmann returns to the recording booth to interview John Patroulis, Worldwide Chief Creative Officer of Grey Global Group.

Prior to joining Grey, Patroulis spent six years at BBH New York, joining as the agency’s Chief Creative Officer before being named its first-ever Creative Chairman in 2015. Under his leadership, BBH became one of the most awarded agencies in New York City.

Tune in to hear how Patroulis went from swinging a sledgehammer in Toledo, Ohio, to becoming one of the most decorated creatives in the industry. His adventure-filled career journey will leave you feeling inspired. Full episode and show notes below!

Show Notes:

  • [0:00 – 1:26] Intro
  • [1:27 – 5:02] Growing up in Toledo, Ohio as the son of teachers, and having an early affinity for reading
  • [5:03 – 9:58] Patroulis talks about attending the Ohio State University without a “plan”, bouncing around different majors before eventually landing on English Literature
  • [9:59 – 17:39] Spending his college summers swinging a sledgehammer at a concrete pipe factory, and what he learned from boxing
  • [17:40 – 26:13] Patroulis talks about couch surfing after college, shares a funny story about being night watchman, and recounts his time working as a bartender at a punk rock club in Wrigleyville called The Cubby Bear
  • [26:14 – 38:51] How Patroulis developed a relationship with a famous NYC-Filmmaker Charles Lane while bartending at the Riviera Cafè
  • [38:52 – 52:38] The amazing story of how Patroulis met David Angelo, and how that friendship propelled him to get his book together, ultimately landing his first advertising job at N.W. Ayer
  • [52:39 – 1:01:26] Getting an offer from Chiat/Day, the importance of working on your craft, what he learned under Gerry Graf, and the responsibility of being irresponsible.
  • [1:01:27 – 1:02:40] How bad meetings can serve a purpose
  • [1:02:41 – 1:09:29] Moving to Chiat/Day’s San Francisco office to work on Adidas, and how Chuck McBride taught him the importance of caring about every little detail, all the way to the end
  • [1:09:30 – 1:13:05] The story behind the famous Adidas commercial, “Hello Tomorrow” directed by Spike Jonze
  • [1:13:06 – 1:15:40] The difference between being a “doer” and a leader
  • [1:15:41 – 1:19:07] Co-founding his own agency T.A.G., and launching Halo 3
  • [1:19:08 – 1:23:42] Going to BBH, and what he learned from John Hegarty’s endless optimism
  • [1:23:43 – 1:25:09] Working at Grey, being confident in yourself, and doubling down on creativity
  • [1:25:10 – 1:26:47] Patroulis explains why he thinks it’s a great time to be in advertising, and why he’s so excited for the future
  • [1:26:48 – 1:28:30] Patroulis shares one piece of advice to young creatives trying to break into the industry – “care”
  • [1:28:31 – 1:29:35] Outro

 “The A-List” is a podcast produced by DiMassimo Goldstein, recorded at the Gramercy Post, and sponsored by the Adhouse Advertising School, New York’s newest, smallest, and hippest ad school. You can subscribe and rate the show on iTunes or listen along on SoundCloud. For updates on upcoming episodes and guests, be sure to like the A-List Podcast on Facebook and follow host Tom Christmann on Twitter

10 Lessons From Season 1 of The A-List

With season two of the A-List Podcast launching soon, we wanted to first take a look back at Season one and compile some of our favorite clips into one episode for your listening pleasure.

With over 15+ hours of insightful interviews to sift through, this was no easy task. Each episode is jam-packed with insights, incredible stories, and lessons that would prove valuable to any young creative looking to break into the industry.

With that said, the episode below contains some key takeaways from season 1. Ten lessons from ten different A-listers. Have at it, and stay tuned for more updates on season 2!

Show Notes

  • [0:00 – 2:47] Intro
  • [2:48 – 9:00] Terri Meyer & Sandy Greenberg on the importance of a strong client relationship
  • [9:01 – 10:39] Omid Farhang shares Alex Bogusky’s philosophy of “Malicious Obedience”
  • [10:40 – 14:02] David Baldwin shares why young creatives should be looking for a good boss, not a company
  • [14:03 – 17:28] Paul Caiozzo talks about the importance of consistency
  • [17:29 – 23:47] Why Kash Sree thinks that sometimes, it’s better to stay stupid
  • [23:48 – 30:17] Rob Schwartz talks about the value of having a mentor
  • [30:18 – 35:15] Gerry Graf discusses why young creatives should embrace failure rather than be afraid of it
  • [35:16 – 37:10] Megan Skelly on the importance of humility
  • [37:11 – 41:03] Jill Applebaum on the dangers of being too picky when looking for a job
  • [41:04 – 46:10] Greg Hahn on why self-delusion can be a valuable tool
  • [46:11 – 48:20] Outro

 *REMINDER: Fall registration for AdHouse classes has begun! Sign up today and learn from A-listers in the agencies they work! To sign up, click HERE.

  “The A-List” is a podcast produced by DiMassimo Goldstein, recorded at the Gramercy Post, and sponsored by the Adhouse Advertising School, New York’s newest, smallest, and hippest ad school. You can subscribe and rate the show on iTunes or listen along on SoundCloud. For updates on upcoming episodes and guests, be sure to like the A-List Podcast on Facebook and follow host Tom Christmann on Twitter

Mark DiMassimo on Ad Age’s AdLib Podcast

Last week, our Chief Mark DiMassimo went AdAge’s Ad Lib Podcast to talk with host Brian Braiker about building brands and businesses in a direct-to-consumer world, why traditional advertising is less important today, how behavior change marketing can be used to help fight the opioid epidemic, and much much more. Full transcript and podcast below!

Mark: What experience do you want them to have? Like when you think about this thing?

Brian: What experience do I want my listeners to have?

Mark: Yeah, why should they tune in?

Brian: I want them to be entertained and informed, inspired, possibly scared. I think they are already probably a little scared.

Mark: So they feel like they need to listen, might be dangerous not to listen.

Brian: If they miss a single episode of this podcast, they’re doomed.

Mark: Alright well, I wanted my brief, so I gotta be entertaining and interesting.

Brian: And who are you? You’re Mark DiMassimo, Chief of DiMassimo Goldstein. Welcome to Ad Lib podcast

Mark: Great to see you and be here. And we are literally seeing each other across this card table.

Brian: It’s a shoestring budget here and you can change that with sponsors. First, let’s start with the basics. DiMassimo Goldstein, what is that? You’re an independent agency that’s 22 years old.

Mark: You know a lot about this business and you know a lot about my business. We are an independent agency in New York that I founded in 1996, 22 years young. Even though we’ve been around for 22 years, we have not had the same year over again because we work with growth-stage turnaround state of businesses so our clients are constantly driving us to embrace change.

Brian: Well I don’t think you have a choice in the matter when it comes to embracing change. So who are these clients?

Mark: Let me give you a few because right now, this is not about being self-promotional…

Brian: Yes, because this is not the DiMassimo Goldstein hour.

Mark: We believe in a direct-to-consumer, choice-filled world, and that people are actually out there in the marketplace trying to get inspired to do great things, and the right things. We want them to do that so some of our top clients right now are Salesforce.org. So Salesforce is one of the big tech companies in the world. And Salesforce with Salesforce.org they really help drive the not-for-profit economy and really help a lot of people so we’re really proud we’re working with them. TradeStation is a fantastic company that went from small competitors to Charles Schwab, to now the fastest-growing programmatic trading, very excited about them. I should mention the Bronx Zoo and Wildlife Conservation Society.

Brian: What a cool client. So you said the words direct-to-consumer, you say those words a lot? I’ve heard those words a few times before we turned on the mics. What do you mean, really, what does that look like?

Mark: So when I founded the agency in 1996, I had this thought.

Brian: Were you a holding company refugee?

Mark: Right before I started DiMassimo Goldstein, I was Creative Director at Kirschenbaum, which was an amazing experience, and we were challenging the holding companies; but before that, I was at J Walter Thompson, YNR, started at BBDO and I went on to be this integrated guy who was working with the brand and advertising. But I had this early experience with direct-to-consumer and I saw technology making everything more and more direct-to-consumer all the time and I thought, man, when they turn to agencies, they always get the folks who don’t know brands, who don’t know how to build brands. I thought, wow, we could be the agency that builds brands for this direct-to-consumer world. For twenty years, I couldn’t really say that, because agency people always heard direct marketing, performance marketing, and it isn’t that. It’s building brands and businesses in a direct-to-consumer world. Dollar Shave Club, for example, all these platforms, Uber, Airbnb, I could go on and on.

Brian: So how does that work? Direct-to-consumer means knocking the agencies out of the way.

Mark: Look, absolutely. We are also agents in the middle and about 10 years ago, Google got together and talked about if it was time to get rid of the agencies and, thank god, they decided to work with us for now. But any middle professional can ] be pushed out of the way. We have to find how we add value.

Brian: How do you add value?

Mark: In a world where everybody has these expectations, I want instant, I want choice. In order to respond to that, you need your agency to understand those expectations. Those people are choosing an experience, but they’re also choosing what club to join. Thats why its also a subscription world, right, we’ve heard that with Amazon and Netflix. It’s people piecing together their own service world. So what inspires me? What clubs do I identify with that I want to make part of my life? You need agencies that can think those things through. Business and brand experience delivered through product service and then marketing, that’s the hierarchy today. So I think one thing that large agencies that grew up and built large factories for advertising, one thing they’re suffering with are these legacy agencies that were built for a world where the advertising drove the brand positioning. That’s not the case anymore.

Brian: The case today is agencies help build the brands themselves; is that where you’re going with this?

Mark: Exactly, I see it again and again, your CCO better be promoted to chief marketing officer and service content and brand or else someone else will. Then, your CMO will be reporting to a chief growth or product officer. Everybody has access to the opinions of others through consumer reviews and rating sites in every category. So product experience that you give and the story you tell around it through content, PR, social media, has to all hang together so advertising is a lot less important than it used to be.

Brian: So this need for brand building at holding company level has made room for consultant agencies to move in.

Mark: When I look at the independents that like us are thriving, they are brand consultant agencies at the core, but then activating through social or an integrated way like we are, or they’re innovation shops. That’s why innovation shops have grown up, because what are we gonna be has become a much more important question than what are we going to say about it.

Brian: So the traditional advertising agency as you see it, the writing’s on the wall?

Mark: Look, I think there are massive global companies that have all the problems of scale and they probably need ways of dealing with those scale problems. I don’t claim to be an expert on that, I believe those worlds are troubled both on the client side and the agency side. It’s really hurting now. I love that Martin Sorrell and I agree for the first time.

Brian: That holding companies are broken? Now that he’s on the other side?

Mark: Right! Now that I’m on the outside, I realize it. No, you were part of the problem, you profited from the problem, you understand the problem really well because you were on the inside and now you know how to compete.

Brian: That’s what George Soros did in a way, too.

Mark: Hell yeah.

Brian: What do you think is going to happen with WPP and the holding model? Pure speculation, obviously.

Mark: I think they compete as public companies, their stories aren’t great, compared to tech companies driven by pure tech stories. They’re holding a lot of what they used to consider cash cow assets, that are actually weighing them down now; they’ve also got a lot of new models. They’re buying independents, they’re trying to integrate them, make them matter for scale. I will not be surprised if we see some divestitures of mature assets. Meanwhile, I hear all the time from folks who would love to get people like me and agencies inside in order to get clients the experience they’ve been leaving for. What they keep telling me is that there are fewer and fewer things to buy.

Brian: Would you sell?

Mark: If the answer was yes, I would already be sold. Wherever I am, the next three years of my life are always too important to me. I’m not going to be the richest guy in the cemetery, but I’ve done well enough that if I love my job, I’ll be OK and that’s my priority to keep growing this place. I’ve given other people this experience in working in a focused, inspiring, less-problematic environment and I’ve seen what it means in their lives, too. We’re not for every client, but we play an important role in the lives of our clients as well.

Brian: Talk about then what you’ve learned at BBDO, JWT, that you saw there that you chose not to replicate. You said you did see a need for that kind of brand building skill set. What did you see that you didn’t want?

Mark: Great question. Without fail, the people at the top of the large agencies I work for, I’m forever grateful I got to work closely with these people. They were really smart, good and the same people that were running small independent agencies before. I won’t name any names but a lot of them at the top are the result of acquisitions, so at that level, there’s similar thinking. But I’ve seen people go into those situations and see problems they have to solve and the genius they go in with thinking about brands, orchestrating teams, really innovating through creative, they get worn down by the problems of how do I keep people out of this meeting. Everybody wants to sell their thing in the meeting. It becomes a how do I keep this all from going south then try to be a little bit better than other people who compete. The other thing I found, and my experience is a little old, but everybody tells me that the beautiful, pure brand planning that I worked with at Kirschenbaum was never really replicated very well at large agencies. As a creative director at J Walter Thompson, I was really a better planner than a creative director. That was true with just about every creative director there. We didn’t have planners. So we had to be right about the brand and therefore, the creative suffered. Whereas in independents, you have strategic thinkers working in lockstep with creatives and media people. But you don’t have to be your own strategists. You can connect your creative mind with somebody who’s really focused on that and it’s in a team where people who aren’t adding to the conversation are not in the conversation. That’s what I mean by the problems of scale. We have to find some way to engage all these people all over the world, even though that’s going to dilute the quality of this conversation. We don’t have that problem. We have it on the client side to some extent as our clients get bigger, but we help create these works that then help and inspire the rest of that team.

Brian: What are your clients’ pain points right now? What are they coming to you looking for help on?

Mark: I’ll say how they define the problem, then the changes that come from that. Without fail, the client needs to both build revenue and do it in a way that builds the brand at the same time. There are all kinds of pressures to sacrifice the long term of the brand for short-term sales. Different kinds of organizations have different pressures, so they own this problem. If they don’t solve this revenue problem in the short run, they’re out. They don’t get to build the brand. If revenue doesn’t actually build the value of the brand, it’s gonna stop working; then they’re gonna be out. With very few exceptions, when they turn to agencies, the agencies all wanna own one side of that problem or the other. So they need someone to step in and say, yes, I will own the integration. They got performance marketing agencies that are all about, let’s personalize, let’s automate. We don’t really care when customers get together if they speak the same language as us. We just need to maximize the amount of sales. Then we got brand people, who often don’t know how to create a brand platform that actually combines all of that stuff in an experience product promotion. The client has to be the orchestrator. When they come to us, they want somebody to sit with them at the table and be an expert in integrating those aspects.

Brian: Talk about your work in partnership with Drug Free Kids, which I think is interesting. Using advertising to fight the opioid epidemic. Why that cause?

Mark: Well, if I go back to the 90’s, when I first got involved with them, the woman who would become my wife and I got involved in the organization at the same time. She took a job there working with all the great agencies developing what has become the largest, single-subject public service campaign ever. She was on the inside working with agencies; I learned a lot how agencies present through that.

Brian: Can you give an example?

Mark: We don’t pitch. We’re one of the fastest-growing private companies in America in the last five years, and we do not do creative pitches. Back then, BBH entered this private market and I got to meet John Haggarty, they would say we don’t pitch. That was a mystery to me; what did that mean? Well at the partnership, I joined the creative review committee, which is now creative development board and I’m the chairman of it as of this year. I saw several times BBH present what they pitched and what I saw was, when you focus on ideas, not execution, you focus the client on the highest leverage you can bring, rather than all these distracting images and pictures. You’re allowing them to imagine whatever they’re going to imagine. You’re going to work with them for months to figure out how to execute. So they didn’t bring in nothing. They brought in strategic thinking and platforms. They said it wasn’t creative. So what I realized is, first off, clients are buying experience and a lot of agency experience is really awful. We’ll basically say you’re just buying one campaign, if this goes, well we’ll work on many things together. So let’s start with a project. We need to commit that much, so you need to commit that much. We’re never going to tie your hands and ask you for a two-year contract because we’ll earn our way; but let’s start with an initial project that assumes it is going to go on. Let’s talk about ideas and how it’ll be to go together, and we find that works. Meeting all these other agencies while working on anti-drug advertising gave me a window into the different cultures. I got to see folks from Crispen present when they were the hottest agency in the country and they set up their work less, they defended their work less, and they were so cool when they got direction. I would see these people come in and talk and talk and defend, and they were like, oh yeah, cool. Later they would decide if they would integrate. They gave you the feeling of confidence. Jill went on to become a client, one of the heads of marketing at Tommy Hilfiger, and I’d say, what do the agencies that work for you really give you? She’d say that as a client, you’re afraid. You can’t do it, you can’t force the agency to do it, and you don’t know how to make it work, even if you’re smart and good. A confident agency, confident enough to listen and support, is so reassuring. How would they be confident? And she’d say well there’s this one guy who will say this is our 7503 commercial, we’ll get this right.

Brian: That’s great that you have somebody on the inside feeding you pro tips.

Mark: Listen to the clients, I care about creative, I care about brand planning.

Brian: What about data?

Mark: We are very teched up and data-oriented because, in the direct-to-consumer world, our mix is 75% digital, including email. How do you integrate what you’re learning from your data with what you’re trying to build for your brand and experience? That’s the challenge your client lives with, and compromise is ultimate failure. Agencies that are either data-or brand-focused tend to sell what they do. They pull in their direction against the other guys and clients are stuck in the middle. It’s super uncomfortable and it makes them feel more responsible and less confident than they want to feel. We’re deeply into the data, and we have to translate it into insight and explain how it fits within what you’re trying to build as a brand. Not all data should immediately trigger a computer to pull a trigger, because that could undermine the brand. There are other ways to sell that will work better.

Brian: Back to fighting opioids.

Mark: Back to fighting opioids. Those guys back in the 80’s it wasn’t about opioids. But those guys who got together from Johnson & Johnson and media companies from the big ad agencies, they had this perfect storm of society is really worried about drugs, the government gets that they’re worried. Industry could really come together because the media landscape meant that advertising could really do something about it. They created the partnership and they did amazing things. They slayed crack, then ecstasy; they went out there and created effective campaigns.

Brian: How do you create an effective campaign to fight drugs? A human behavior that is never going to go away and kids are not receptive to advertising, less so now than ever before.

Mark: Yeah, exactly right. That’s what’s changed. That worked for the media environment of then, but that doesn’t work for today. Before it was media agencies and ad agencies, now its the core digital firms. The Googles, Facebooks, Twitters and the rest of media plus agencies and deep integrated digital agencies. It’s a deeper coalition in the world today. Now, what we’re focused on is the partnership for Drug Free Kids and what that means, is helping parents who are on the front line with their kids. We’re not up there advertising to kids saying stay away from drugs. What we are is providing services in a direct-to-parent way. Leveraging these partnerships with Google and Facebook. It’s working, and the government isn’t spending money on getting help for parents. They’re not spending money right now on prevention; maybe they will. But if you’re in a tech firm, media firm or agency, my message is this is our generation’s problem, and I know you’re working with guns, add that, too. This one of the biggest social behavior problems of our generation and step up, it’s a whole new thing now. If you’re interested, a lot of folks have had personal experiences, reach out to me, I’m not hard to find on social media. We need people to step up and be a part of this, and we have some great people on this creative review board now, amazing thinkers, a top innovation guy from Apple, great CCO’s from agencies. It’s a great thing. I don’t think it’s just me. We found through our research that folks are having trouble with technology addiction.

Brian: We saw that in Apple’s keynote.

Mark: Tim Cook is right again. How many of us are working on attracting people’s attention and distracting people from paying attention, engaging them for as long as possible. Getting them to click for as long as possible. We’re all out there mastering the art of diverting people’s attention and casting a spell over their behavior. There’s an enormous amount of choice and my belief is that values have to come above business. I think values will drive business success, but you have to align. I believe we can help people solve this choice problem. We can help people control themselves a bit more, so they can get more satisfaction out of life. If we do that, the brands that do that are ultimately going to do better. This is why we focus on inspiring action brands and help people form more empowering habits and make more inspiring decision. That’s what we do.

Brian: I’m sure that’s hard to monetize.

Mark: Because people are desperate in situations like this, now because of what’s happened, I really believe that is what’s driving us into a direct-to-consumer marketplace. I think the brands that give you a better experience feel better afterward. This is why Facebook and Apple are doing this. They realize that there’s a limit on just pure behavior if people feel miserable, if they don’t feel empowered, they’re going to go elsewhere and there will be competition. Talking about the benefits of scale, the benefits don’t extend to be able to make people miserable forever. Government will rise up, too. I’m a challenger, but I don’t want to challenge through government. I want to create alternatives that give people incredible experiences. And I also would love to help brands like Apple and Google do that as well. But I think we have to give people better experiences of themselves, feeling empowered.

Brian: That’s an empowering place to leave things. This was excellent. Sounds like you’re doing good work. Thanks, Mark, appreciate you being on the show today.

Mark: Thanks Brian.